these are the eyes of disarray
not so fast...
Published on March 31, 2008 By little-whip In Current Events

"Children have rights too and parents have certain rights which end when they intrude too far into a child's right to live. A parents cannot act in such a way, that is essentially, criminally negligent. And so the parent's right to bring up the child in the way the parent thinks best - an important right and one which government has no business fooling around with, ends at the point at which the parent's actions endanger the lives of kids."

(ACLU--hate 'em if you must, but they're absoultey correct on this one.)

There's been a lot of talk around here lately about 'parental rights' and just how far they extend.  I find it sadly ironic that those who yammer the most about such 'rights' also tend to be the most outspoken opponents of abortion.

To suck a fetus out of the womb, they argue, is murder.  (I agree.)  Yet once that child is born, these same 'right-to-life' folks seem to argue that the parents then have the right to subject that child to all sorts of horrors, scarring them for life and even leading to their deaths in many cases.

Refuse common medical treatment for common illness to your child, resulting in their death, and you become the latest poster child for 'parental rights.'  Any government interference, they claim, violates their sacred right to privacy and ability to raise their child as they see fit, even if it kills them to do so.

Guess what, folks.  These 'rights' don't exist when the action (or inaction) in question goes against the best interests of the child.  For example, if you don't put your child in a car seat, you're going to get a ticket.  Why?  Because putting them in a car seat is in their best interest, even though in rare cases, entanglement in a car seat has been the cause of their death.

It's the same with medical treatment.  Sure, sometimes a doctor's actions cause death.  That alone does not justify refusing potentially life-saving treatment of all kinds when your child becomes ill.  Praying is fine, as long as it's done in conjunction with medical treatment, not instead of.

Your child's 'right to life' supercedes your parental rights to privacy and religious freedom.

Unless of course you want to argue that their right to life only exists prior to their birth, when you are busy condemning abortion.  After birth, they become your chattel, your property, to be treated and disposed of as you see fit. It's an ugly argument, but at least its honest. 

I believe abortion is murder.

I also believe that willfully and knowingly denying a child life-saving medical treatment is murder.  Even in the name of 'God.'  Especially in the name of 'God.'

I also believe that anyone arguing against abortion 'in the name of God' out of one side of their mouth while advocating for parental rights that cause or contribute to the deaths of children out of the other is a hyprocrite of the worst sort, and shouldn't procreate in the first place.

 


Comments (Page 1)
on Mar 31, 2008

In Memoriam of all babies killed by their parents religious fanaticism--after they were born.

Christian Science Victims

Natalie Rippberger, eight months, died December 9, 1984 in Santa Rosa, California, of h-flu meningitis. The parents, Mark and Susan Rippberger, had retained a Christian Science practitioner for spiritual "treatment" but would not get essential medical care for their daughter. Natalie's parents, Mark and Susan Rippberger, were charged with felony child endangerment and involuntary manslaughter. Both were convicted of felony child endangerment.

Shauntay Walker, age four, died March 8, 1984, in Sacramento, California, of h-flu meningitis. Shauntay was home sick from her pre-school for 17 days. She received no medical care, only Christian Science "care." Laurie Walker was charged with involuntary manslaughter, and on June 21, 1990, over six years after her daughter's death, she pled guilty to that charge in a negotiated plea which left her no room to appeal. Laurie was sentenced to 600 hours of community service, and was instructed by the Court to provide medical care for her remaining daughter until the daughter's eighteenth birthday.

Amy Hermanson, age seven, died September 30, 1986, in Sarasota, Florida, of untreated juvenile onset diabetes. Her parents refused to provide her with necessary medical care.Following Amy's death, Chris Hermanson, Amy's mother, stated that Amy had been healed by Christian Science the morning of her death, but that Amy had make her own decision to pass on. Mrs. Hermanson had constantly claimed during Amy's illness that Amy was having an emotional problem deciphering her identity. She also states that Amy had become sick because of negative vibrations received from outside the home. Amy's parents were charged with felony child abuse and third degree murder. Both were convicted on the charge of third degree murder.

Faith Tabernacle Victims

Justin Barnhart, age two, died September 1981, in Beaver Valley, Pennsyslvania of a Wilm's tumor which grew larger than a volleyball in the child's abdomen. The parents, William and Linda Barnhart, withheld medical care from their son because of their religious beliefs. With early medical intervention, this form of childhood cancer has a better than 90 percent cure rate. The parents were convicted of involuntary manslaughter in 1982 by the county court.

Five children of the Winterbourne family of suburban Philadelphia died of pneumonia between 1971 and 1980 without receiving medical attention. Roger Winterbourne, the father, stated: "When you believe in something, you have to believe it all the way. If you only believe in it part way, it's not a true belief."

In early 1991, six children died in the Philadelphia area of measles. Five of the children's parents belonged to the Faith Tabernacle and had religious objections to vaccinations. (The sixth child's parents belonges to the First Century Gospel Church which also objects to medical care.)

End Time Ministry's Victims

Michael David Boehmer, four days old, died March 15, 1990, in Lake City, Florida, of a pulmonary hemorrhage. The parents did not obtain medical attention for their son, stating that they believed doctors should be avoided. They relied on prayer to heal their baby. On March 14th, the parents placed cotton in his nose in an effort to stop the bleeding. The boy died the next day. The autopsy showed he had lost at least ¼ of his blood. The medical examiner stated that Michael had a 90 percent chance of survival with a Vitamin K shot, which is commonly given to newborns. (Vitamin K enhances the blood's clotting ability.)

Infant McDowell was born dead in January 1979 in Billings, Montana, after her mother had been in labor for three days. The 9 lb. Child was born dead in a bathtub. A coroner's inquest found that End Time sect members moved McDowell from her apartment to a member's home to keep concerned relatives from interfering during her labor. The prosecutor cited laws shielding religious practice as the reason for dropping the case.

Church of the First Born's Victims

Jason Lockhart, age nine, of Enid Oklahoma, died of a ruptured appendix due to parental religious beliefs. Parents, Dean and Patsy Lockhart, in December 1982, were acquitted of first degree manslaughter because of Oklahoma's religious exemption law. Responding to public outrage, the Oklahoma legislature modified the state's religious exemption law by adding a statement the "medical care shall be provided where permanent physical damage could result to a child."

Desiree Camren, age three, of Cushing, Oklahoma, died February 1987 after a week's illness due to lack of medical care. The medical examiner said that medical treatment could have saved the child's life. Dean and Sheila Camren, the parents, claimed their religious beliefs prevented them from seeking medical help for Desiree. Testimony at the trial indicated that the Camrens knew the child was dying but believed her death was punishment from God because the father had not been attending church. The parents were sentenced to prison in May 1989 for second degree manslaughter.

Jordan Northrup, age four months, died January 1991 in Redding, California, of meningitis and pneumonia. His parents, Earl Joe and Catherine Northrup, attempted to heal their son through prayers alone during his six day illness. On September 19, 1991, they were charged with involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment.

Faith Assembly's Victims

Joel Romine, 20 months, of Indiana, died in March 1989 of emphysema, a complication of pheumonia. The parents, Daniel and Diana Romine, refused to obtain medical care for their son; they told the coroner that they "do not believe in seeking medical treatment and instead prayed at home for the child's recovery."

John David Ricks, five months, of Kimmel, Indiana, died in April 1990 of untreated bacterial memingitis. The parents, Michael and Diana Ricks, as members of the Faith Assembly, never sought medical care for their son. The father had completed four years of medical school before dropping out to join the Faith Assembly. On April 3rd, John developed a fever, and on April 6th, the boy stopped breathing three times; the next day he died.

Sean Woodrun, six months, of Nobles, Indiana, died in April 1990 of untreated bronchial pneumonia, after being sick for several days. In June, Roberta and Robin Woodrun plead guilty to withholding medical care form their baby. They were subsequently sentenced for criminal recklessness and reckless homicide and received three and four years suspended sentences. Thy were also ordered to involve a doctor in the care and treatment of their four other children, including immunizations, examinations and medical or surgical care; to report any illnesses of their children within 12 hours; to complete a first aid course; to use a fever thermometer and baby scale; and to authorize monitoring of their children's health by probation officers and provision of emergency medical care for their school-aged children.

Victims of other sects:

Wesley Parker, age 11, died in the early 1970's in Barston, California, of medically untreated diabetes. An itinerant preacher had declared the boy healed.

Infant McCourt was born dead in July 1987 on a South Carolina commune that rejects medical care. According to the coroner, the baby died due to lack of oxygen because of prolonged delivery. The county pathologist said the baby most likely would have lived if the mother had had prenatal care and medical attendance at delivery. The mother, Linda McCourt, was a member of the Faith Cathedral Fellowship.

Aaron Norman, age ten, died December 1987 because of medically untreated diabetes. Bob Norman, the father, was convicted of first degree manslaughter in Spokane, Washington. The Normans belonged to the No-Name Fellowship. Members of this group believe "sickness is a result of sin and a wicked lifestyle." Members distrust doctors.

Loren Willliamson, age five, died June 1989, of lymphocytic leukemia in Loranger, Louisiana. Annetta Williamson, the mother, belongs to the Church of God; she prayed for divine healing instead of obtaining medical care. The coroner stated Loren died of congestive heart failure resulting from untreated leukemia. "Leukemia is a cancer, but is can be treated with chemotherapy and blood transfusions. The lymphocytic leukemia is more treatable than other kinds of leukemia." Neighbors told investigators that Loren had been looking bad for several weeks and that red splotches, indicative of leukemia, had covered Loren's body for several weeks. The mother was booked for negligent homicide.

Five children, whose parents belonged to the Christ Miracle Healing Center in Arizona, died of curable ailments between 1979 and 1983. One of the children, Theiral Drewwho, age six, died of a strangulated hernia, which could have been corrected by routine surgery.

Micaiah Edwards, age 15 months, died July 1991, in Spanaway, Washington, of meningitis after his parents withheld medical care on religious grounds. Tracy Edwards, the chidl's father, was a lay minister and missionary with the Traveling Ministries Everyday Church. The death is currently being investigated.

~~

The lists are numerous, the victims voiceless, and this sort of thing continues to happen on a daily basis, as we've read about this week.  It's absolutely shocking, and too damned depressing to research anymore.  (I realize some of these cases are old news, and that's the saddest thing of all.)

You can read more here, if you've the heart to do so. Me, I've seen enough.  http://www.masskids.org/dbre/dbre_2.html

"I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing," —these are the words of Deuteronomy—"therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live."

on Mar 31, 2008

It is a tragedy but if there religion forbids certain medical treatment, I don't think they should be forced to receive it.  I assume that the parents are using the same standards for their own medical care decisions as they do for their children.  What about parents who refuse to immunize their children?  Should that be allowed?  I don't think the state has the right to determine what the proper care is, I think that is up to the individual and if the individual isn't of age then it's up to the parents.  The fact that these parents are willing to lose their children and face jail time shows how deeply held their beliefs are. 

on Mar 31, 2008
It looks like I may be exiled for my lack of civility towards those who neglect and/or abuse their children.

If that turns out to be the case, I cannot think of a better cause.

Still, I find it hard to believe that a 'civilized' nation would even be having discussions like the ones going on elsewhere at the moment, I'm sick to death of hearing about the rights of abusers... from their 'right' to blog here (kfc's thread to gid) all the way up to their 'right' to actually KILL their kids, (parated's article on the 'parental rights'.)

No matter how hard I try, I cannot get my head around certain statements...take the following, for example.

I think when there is a question on what the right thing to do is for a child the parents have to be the ones to decide. The result shouldn't enter into it. Their beliefs should. Your opinion of how stupid their beliefs are should not.
--Jythier

Bullshit.

The result shouldn't enter into it? My God. Does anyone really, truly believe this nonsense? You can embrace the stupid belief that God will protect you from rattlesnake bites, but if you hand a rattlesnake to a toddler who is then bitten and killed, you should be executed for murder.

Civility, my ass. This sort of thing has no place in a civilized society. No discussion about it can *be* civil, because what's being discussed is barbaric and the people who perpetrate this sort of ignorance are barbarians.

And we have the nerve to call Muslims 'primitive.'
on Mar 31, 2008
It is a tragedy but if there religion forbids certain medical treatment, I don't think they should be forced to receive it.


Some 'faiths' refuse ALL medical treatment, Loca, not just certain procedures.

The fact that these parents are willing to lose their children and face jail time shows how deeply held their beliefs are.


So that makes it right somehow? The kid is worm food, but hey, mommy and daddy were true believers all the way to the end, so we as a society are to look the other way?

A very surprising stance, considering your normally liberal take on other issues.
on Mar 31, 2008
Come on! If you have a deeply held belief that God is gonna look after your babies while you head off to the prayer meeting for a few hours and they're found playing in traffic while you're gone, you're going to lose custody of those kids.

You could apply this twisted logic to almost any form of neglect or abuse in order to justify it. Daddy may 'deeply believe' that it's his right and duty to introduce his daughters to the joys of sexual intercourse, but it's still illegal to screw your own kid.

Mommy might 'deeply believe' that feeding her daughter nothing but lettuce and water will rid of her satan's influence, but if she acts on that, starving her child to death, she is a murderer. (this was a real case.)

Andrea Yates really, really, really believed that she was a bad mother and drowned her five babies in a bathtub in order to save their immortal souls. This should be legal?

I see no difference at all. In each case, an adult parent's belief system has caused direct harm (or death) to their offspring, yet somehow religious nuts get a pass?

gah.

Gah!
on Mar 31, 2008
I am conflicted on this.

I understand praying for my children when they are sick.

I don't understand when that is all I do.

God gave people minds, imaginations, all the wonderful things (and some not so wonderful..think nukes, heh) to help us help ourselves.

Kids are my particular soft spot. Not that I am some saint who wants a bunch of them, not even close. Two's a plenty.

But, in the world it seems like they are indeed property from conception until they are old enough to be out on their own. Maybe we should have a modified bill of rights for kids since the grown up adult one doesn't seem to apply in this country. I don't think any of the children who died woulda said, "yeah, let me die, just keep praying. This pain thing is greeeeat!"

This is a tuff subject because while I can agree the law needs to step in and protect the lives of our youngest citizens, even from their parents--can we being the humans we are stop there?

At the end of the day I believe all children are precious and should be as protected under the law as I am.
on Mar 31, 2008

I agree with Little Whip.  It should be against the law to prevent necessary medical treatment for your children.  Pray for them too, but like Tova said, God gave us imaginations, intelligence, and inspiration for the technology that we have.  Use it, or lose them.  

on Mar 31, 2008

I started to write but I guess I lost it.  I am willing to change my stance to the parents rights to make decisions for their child ends when the child's life is endangerd. 

on Mar 31, 2008
Putting other conflicts aside LW,

I agree with you 100% here. I was looking for something that I could say that would make sense but you did a great job with this article. I too was a bit torn on this but could not shake the idea of children dying in the name of God. I just can't believe God would have wanted it that way. This comes pretty close to human sacrifice in the name of God. Do people truly believe it's OK for a child to die just because of religious beliefs?

BTW, that was one hell of a list, I look at my 2 kids in their photos and it makes me cry to think anyone could do such a thing.
on Mar 31, 2008
If I was locked in a food closet with a starving man. He was to weak to feed himself, and instead of feeding him (exercising my rights), I prayed for him to get strong enough to feed himself, but he died instead....would I be guilty?

What's the difference between this and withholding common proven medical treatment from children?



on Mar 31, 2008
Praying is fine, as long as it's done in conjunction with medical treatment, not instead of.


Yes, God yes!

You know, if you're really into that whole God stuff...then certainly you can rationalize that hey, maybe God provided these things to help us heal. You know, doctors and medicine and treatments and all that stuff. The power of prayer is not a panacea for disease.

That and there's nothing "religious" about disease. Most are caused by genetic disorders or pathogens. It's not a curse, it's a defect or harmful organism. I just don't understand the people that decide to pray rather than at least take the kid to a doctor.

Test your faith on yourself, not your kids.

If I was locked in a food closet with a starving man. He was to weak to feed himself, and instead of feeding him (exercising my rights), I prayed for him to get strong enough to feed himself, but he died instead....would I be guilty?


Well, if it was your kid in that closet...then you'd be guilty of neglect. Some stranger, well...you're not really responsible for. Though one would think you'd feel pretty bad about letting the guy starve if there's a sandwich in that closet or something.

This is such a cheery topic....

~Zoo
on Mar 31, 2008

If you are referring to my post, I never once said that parents have the right to murder their kids.  I didn't even say parents have the right to neglect their kids.  I merely stated that, when there is a choice of legitamate alternatives, no government agency or busybody should have the authority to mandate one particular choice.

on Mar 31, 2008

This article is a culmination of my frustration not only with this particular issue, but recent ju events, and my fed up-edness with the 'religious right' in general, even though I share many of their conservative views.  Please don't take it personally, Ted. I was more shocked by some of the comments I saw on your thread than I was by the original question it asked.

I started to write but I guess I lost it. I am willing to change my stance to the parents rights to make decisions for their child ends when the child's life is endangerd.

If there is a Lord to praise, then praise the Lord.  I got through to someone.

 

on Mar 31, 2008

I agree with Little Whip. It should be against the law to prevent necessary medical treatment for your children. Pray for them too, but like Tova said, God gave us imaginations, intelligence, and inspiration for the technology that we have. Use it, or lose them

I dunno where I saw this story, but it applies here:

A guy was stranded on his roof during a flood, with the water rising rapidly.  A man in a rowboat passed by and offered to assist.  "No thanks" the man replied, "My God will provide."

A little while later, a helicopter tried to lift him off the roof.  Again he refused assistance, waving them on. "The Lord will rescue me" he declared as he prayed loudly for salvation.

Eventually the water overtook him and he drowned.  As he died, he beseeched God, asking 'Why have you forsaken me?"

"I sent you a boat and a helicopter, you fool" was God's reply.

on Mar 31, 2008
Parated:
Please don't take it personally, Ted. I was more shocked by some of the comments I saw on your thread than I was by the original question it asked.


Okey Doke, one lack of personally taking, coming up. ;~D